Finding Your Visual Identity
Welcome back to Photography Adjacent. This week, we sit down with Tom Wright, a UK-based photographer whose career has evolved from wedding photography to commercial photography and now to coaching and training. Tom also hosts the podcast About Creative Experience. (Available on YouTube and Apple Podcasts.)
Tom passionately outlines his philosophy—it's about adapting and advancing, and developing through transformation. "How you interact with the subject is almost completely shaped by the equipment you choose," he points out, stressing how vital technical choices are to artistic expression.
Throughout our conversation, it was evident that Tom has transformed over his career, not just in his professional roles but also in how he empowers other photographers.
Discussing his career trajectory, Tom explains his shift from wedding to commercial photography and, ultimately, to consulting and educating. He's driven to leave a lasting impact on the field, steering clear of the fleeting trends often dominating social media.
"More and more, I think we're seeing people make decisions now that are less influenced by audience, by platform, by reach, like virality or whatever you want to call it," he critiques the transient nature of modern photography trends.
Tom shares insights into how the technical side of photography complements the artistic side.
"For the first time in my life, at least, it felt like I could actually be an artist," he reveals, discussing how mastering technical aspects opened the door to true artistic freedom.
I really appreciate Tom's insights in this episode, particularly when we discuss the economic realities of the photography industry. He illuminates the crucial balance between passion and profitability.
His perspective on aligning personal fulfillment with sustainable business practices truly resonates with anyone looking to succeed creatively and financially in photography and beyond.
Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button for more stories and insights from artists, activists, writers, and photographers.
Tom Trevatt (00:01)
Tom Wright, really lovely to have you on the podcast. Welcome to Photography Adjacent. Thank you for joining me today. It's great to have you here.
Tom Wright (00:09)
Anytime. Glad to be here. Honestly, it's kind of nice to be the one on the receiving end of a podcast for a change.
Tom Trevatt (00:15)
The receiving end of the difficult questions. Let's make them as difficult as possible in that case. Tom, that joke obviously will hit to the people who know that you do a podcast, to people who've got no idea who the hell you are, why don't you give us a little bit of an introduction.
Tom Wright (00:18)
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, sure. How early do you want me to start? I can go right back to childhood. I just start from the bit where I picked up a camera. I'm not sure that I'm ready for that kind of a podcast just yet, but like to kind of start at the beginning of my career, basically I was living near Manchester and basically a broke person. I kind of started out teaching the guitar when I left school and decided that that wasn't for me anymore and stumbled across a shop in Manchester that...
Tom Trevatt (00:34)
sure let's start from the trauma let's go from the trauma
Tom Wright (01:00)
basically turned out to be the distributor for the Impossible Project, which is the people that bought out Polaroid when they gave up on instant film. The downside was this film didn't actually work. So I, never having picked a camera before, went and thought, oh, that's cool. My friends would like that. Bought so much Polaroid film and trolled eBay for like 10 to 20 cameras, find them, and then got a bunch of my mates to kind of come shoot some film. We had a little competition.
And the person who won this little mini photo contest that devised one, one of the cameras that I got off eBay and like whatever film we hadn't used during the day. It turns out I was the first person to order more than one or two packs that at a time and the people that distributed it says we're having issues with the returns on this film. Basically. I don't know if people know or not, but when they killed Polaroid, um, Florian caps bought the factory that, that kind of used to produce this stuff. So he had all the machines that made the film.
You had the kind of packaging that the film went into, but all the chemistry that was used to make Polaroid film, which is a really complicated process, was gone. And actually some of the things used to make Polaroids were actually controlled substances now, so you couldn't reformulate them in the same way. And as a result, the early versions of Polaroid color film only actually had one color. Like first flush was pink sometimes and blue sometimes, and occasionally you get lucky and you get both. But...
Other than that, there was no actual color. They were massively like temperature dependent as well and really had an issue if you didn't shield them from light when they came out of the camera. So this film was expensive and it was being sold in essentially a gift shop because I think the distributor hadn't realized the state that the film was in. And they hired me in to start teaching people how to actually expose this stuff. Ended up doing workshops up and down the country and kind of got the bug for photography. I'd literally never picked a camera.
before that, started kind of shooting regular 35 millimeter film, moved on to digital, and then started shooting weddings like everybody seems to when they start out. Did that for a huge number of years, like really enjoyed it. But more and more was finding that the kind of party atmosphere in the evenings was not sitting right with me. You mentioned like trauma. I've had some of that in the past and I find wedding receptions to be pretty triggering. So I was like, you know what, let's not do that anymore.
Tom Trevatt (03:23)
Okay, well.
Tom Wright (03:26)
and kind of moved on to commercial photography. Been doing that now for probably about six or seven years. And basically just before the pandemic, stopped working for a company as an in -house commercial photographer and went freelance. That's kind of like a very kind of potted beginning to how I got to the bit that you might actually want to talk about and the stuff that I'm doing right now. So I'll break there.
Tom Trevatt (03:49)
Oh, okay, fantastic. I mean, it's probably the geekiest intro to photography I've ever heard. It's fantastic.
Tom Wright (03:57)
I mean that is exactly what I'm like though, like I am that nerd. Always.
Tom Trevatt (04:01)
know, it's amazing. It's amazing. So in a way, actually, your intro to photography was more about education really than photography to begin with. Yeah.
Tom Wright (04:10)
Yeah, yeah, literally. And actually, I'm not sure that I would have started if there wasn't that kind of like technical element to it. Like I always wanted to be a graphic designer growing up, but I'm dyspraxic, which is something that people may or may not know about. Basically, it used to be called clumsy child syndrome, but the actual kind of like neuroscience of it is more like my brain runs faster than the rest of my body can communicate. So.
I found it really difficult making complicated motor movements. It's very difficult for a lot of dyspraxics to speak. Not in my case, obviously I've got a motor mouth. Um, but for a lot of people, it's genuinely an issue. And when I was teaching the guitar, I was actually teaching people with dyspraxia or like with other neurodiversity issues and not as music therapy, cause it was never qualified as a music therapist, but just seeing the way that focusing on something can help people improve. But.
The reason why the education side works so well for me is because it gave me a way of understanding photography. And then it meant that when I picked the camera up, all the artistic decisions were made. And all I had to do was focus on what was in front of me and finding the right moment. And for the first time in my life, at least, it felt like I could actually be an artist. And that was hugely influential for me. And it's part of why I stopped doing the education side. It was kind of enticing to be able to just make a photograph from nothing, not need to learn how to paint, not need to kind of like make those complex movements with my hands, not have to sketch and make it more of like a performance art. It was something that I could lean more heavily on the bits of life that I was good at, like finding patterns and kind of using my brain a little bit more, I guess.
Tom Trevatt (05:51)
Interesting. So that means in a sense that I can see this kind of history, this little potted history in what you're doing now really, in a way. And obviously I've seen you kind of go through a process over the last, let's say a year, where you've gone from maybe doing more brand photography. I didn't know you in your wedding days, but you've kind of been doing more brand photography and more into where actually now you're helping photographers.
Tom Wright (06:21)
Yeah, that's true.
Tom Trevatt (06:23)
And in a way, it's kind of like a return back to that very initial role where you were working with the Polaroid film, where actually you're helping photographers now doing your new thing, your new, kind of the evolution of what you're doing in a way is to do with finding a photographer's kind of style, I suppose. Do you want to give us a little bit more information about that?
Tom Wright (06:50)
Absolutely. So I started working on a project probably about five years ago where I started trying to help people develop their visual identity a little bit more. Not in the sense of it choosing fonts or colors, but the work of a photographer, the things that make your images look like you. So not just the content, which is definitely important, but how you interact with the subject is almost completely shaped by the equipment that you choose.
Um, for example, obviously in your case, you're an incredible headshot photographer. If you started shooting with a 16 millimeter lens, that's going to change the distance that you, you work, you work out with your subjects and it's going to change the relationship. You're going to be closer. There's going to be proximity reality, but a huge amount of discomfort that would probably come with that. And it's trying to understand when those kinds of extreme creative decisions make sense for people.
or even whether or not it makes sense to adopt like industry practices or all this kind of stuff. There's a lot of kind of technical information in the photography industry and an awful lot of it is aimed at people purely on an academic level. And one of the things that I really love about photography versus any other kind of technical pursuit is that it's almost exclusively in service of the art. So I was trying to help people that saw themselves as pure artists.
to understand the technical side enough to kind of get rid of some of this kind of technical debt that builds up when you focus on the craft only and end up using equipment that might be quite old or you might have a situation where you've kind of lost sight of the direction you want to go in because you were limited by equipment and now you're not. And it started out being a case of, okay, how do we build Lightroom presets? How do we build your workflow? What equipment do you use? But more recently it's transitioned into who am I?
Like, what do I actually want to say? How do I interact with a subject? And those kind of wider questions have led to much longer term kind of collaborative projects with photographers.
Tom Trevatt (08:54)
Do you think that a photographer understands themselves? Like for me, like it's really, really important to understand yourself within a kind of market or within a kind of tradition of other headshot photographers or other portrait photographers. I'm relatively new to the game. I'm, you know, I've only been doing this particular type of work for a little while, but in a way I've got a kind of background in, in art.
So part of my understanding of my work is trying to think about it as part of a kind of tradition of what it means to make portraits. What's your experience in working with photographers in terms of their understanding of their kind of place within a tradition or a canon or a lineage?
Tom Wright (09:38)
It's strange that you talk about it that way, because I'm not sure that people see heritage and lineage in the same way in photography as they do in other forms of fine art. Especially not when you talk about director consumer photography, like portraits, weddings, et cetera. But I do think a lot of people fall into a trap of trying to follow in somebody's footsteps, but they do it too closely. There is a huge kind of trend based...
of direction setting happening in the wedding industry specifically. And I'm hoping that we're going to see that break up a little bit more because I want to see more diversity. But I'm not sure that people outside of a fine art background tend to focus on that first. I can say for sure the people that I work with most often tend to be more like you Tom, where they are their artists first. They do understand the value of their work. They do see photography as more than like a striving for perfection.
They do see themselves as part of an artistic tradition. And even if they're in direct to consumer work, they're trying to do things in a way that either feels more authentic to them in a vacuum, which is actually surprisingly rare, sadly, or they're aware of how they fit into the context of the landscape around them and are trying to find like open space in a crowded market. So it's not so much that they're trying to follow these trends or trying to follow a tradition.
the people that tend to do very well tend to be looking to try and move away from what's considered to be the accepted norm.
Tom Trevatt (11:11)
Yeah, I obviously don't know the wedding industry very, very well. But I do understand this idea of trends through it. You know, you see this kind of you see color grading trends, whether that's through using the same kind of sets of presets, or whether that's just people going, Oh, I really love those browns and being like, okay, desaturate the greens, let's get the browns in or you know, something along those lines. And it looks wonderful. It's fantastic. There's also a sense in a way that
Tom Wright (11:33)
Yeah.
Tom Trevatt (11:39)
If you're part of that landscape as a photographer, you're creating what it is possible to imagine as a client. So in the wedding industry, this is what wedding photographs look like. Therefore, the clientele, the people who might be booking me will go, okay, I understand these kinds of three or four sets of different types of wedding photography. So you've got the kind of, you know, maybe...
full black and white documentary style, maybe even shot on film, you know, little kind of small like or something like this, through to like elaborate sort of sets, you know, with like, you know, very lots of different lights and so on and so forth. And it creates this kind of, I suppose, not just fashion or trend, but in a sense of kind of imagining what's possible for for that industry to have. So clients will go, Oh, I see.
lots of photographers doing X, Y and Z. Therefore, I think that's what wedding photographs look like. And I think that's really, really interesting when you get that kind of little moment. And obviously, I think about this in my work, that little moment where you go, okay, so there are certain conditions, certain sort of frameworks within which a convention happens. And how do you kind of push outside of that convention? Obviously, when people do that successfully, and do it in a way that people see it, then it does have those kinds of little moments of
of like breaking the mold and getting people kind of excited. Is that that's the kind of aim for you really, I presume.
Tom Wright (13:11)
I would actually, yes, it is in a way, but I think I need to kind of talk a little bit about the premise first because the idea that this is somehow specific to wedding photography is definitely not the case. Actually, what I'm seeing more and more often is that people tend to see the content that platforms prefer and tend to make more of that because it makes sense. You get accelerated growth from that. And
More and more, I think we're seeing people make decisions now that are less influenced by audience, by platform, by reach, like virality or whatever you want to call it, the way that a post might go viral or people might catch on to. Because I think we're starting to realize that it doesn't, one, it doesn't encourage variety. It encourages extremism, which is pretty shocking really. And very often appeals to like,
only based desires or only very kind of reaction, reactionary stances to those based desires. And I think that's something that as a whole, people seem to be tired of and seem to be trying to move away from for artists. Very often what I'm seeing is the photographers have been in a situation where previously a lot of their work came from trend based interactions. And they're now not seeing that have the same level of success.
And people with a mind to do something independently have already started to break away from those norms. So you correct, like there may well have been siloed ideas of what wedding photography could be, but more now than ever, because these social media platforms won't amplify anything, it kind of means you can go back to doing the things that you actually care about, the things that light you up and the things you want to do. Because in the end, you're going to get further by continuing to produce things that you care about than trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and try and force this kind of content that feels completely inauthentic and shaves off all those kind of nice smooth edges on your kind of like round kind of piece of block going into a square hole or vice versa. We want to try and encourage people to preserve as much of their uniqueness as they can while still having market fit.
Tom Trevatt (15:29)
Do you think that there's a question here about uniqueness and market fit that I'm kind of interested in, but do you think that the market celebrates multiple different kind of unique styles? Or is there a sense that there's, there are, there are kinds of types of trends that keep going. In your, in your experience, what's the, what's the most, what seems to be happening the most? Difficult to answer that question.
Tom Wright (16:00)
Absolutely. And I think it's even more difficult because I really don't know what the market wants. If I'm being completely honest, this is, this has always been something that confuses me. And I think for most of us, we don't really need like mass adoption of the stuff that we're doing. I mean, how many sessions can you do a week? If you've only got 12 bookings that you can take over a seven day period, or in the case of a wedding photographer, 25 to 35 a year, you don't really need that many people to love what you do. And.
In terms of like broad trends, are there a lot going on? Absolutely. And the different in different geographical areas, like right now in the UK, that there has been a very big documentary wedding photography that's all focused on these big epic moments that frankly felt pretty manufactured. And then there's an equal and opposite movement towards more authentic and inverted commas photography that leads more in direct flash without any kind of setup, in between moments and using a very film based color palette, because it feels like it's almost incidental. And those two, those two things have existed for a long time in opposition. And we're now seeing photographers in the U S do the same sort of thing, but merging those styles. So for example, there's a photographer called Daniel Kim. Uh, he's doing really well right now. Educated. He's been doing some mentoring with John Dolan. Like he's again, one of the original one of photographers that did Martha Stewart. What is.
way back when it first started, fashion photography before that, editorial news, all that kind of stuff. And trying to lean more into the unique elements of weddings. So am I seeing some major trends? Yes. But I also think again, we're at a point at the moment where things are changing. The appetite for what your parents had or what your friends had has gone away. And really interestingly, there's a whole generation of people now that want nostalgia for things that they never experienced the first time around.
Tom Trevatt (17:56)
Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, you and I probably are old enough to remember film the first time around, but most people getting married at the moment aren't. I certainly shot film the first time around and have returned to it more recently. But it's one of those, you know, in a way, it's like it's a nostalgia for the difficulty, right? It's a nostalgia for slowing down and making life a little bit more difficult, which is a way, which is a reason why, you know, both you and I tend to shoot on kind of cameras that do slow us down a little bit, rather than say, oh, you know, certainly I'm not particularly excited about the newest lens with the newest autofocus and, you know, snapping to the eye and all that kind of stuff. I don't care that much about that. Whereas that seems to be the way the industry has gone, you know, trying to work with, you know, work for people who are just like, right, let's get a machine that does everything for you.
And then you've got the other direction, which is maybe the direction that Fuji is going, which is like a little bit more like, you know, throw back to that kind of nostalgia.
Tom Wright (19:00)
So on the nostalgia front and the slowing down, I actually think this is one of the things that I really love because personally, I want there to be both. I just think the problems that we have is that we only tend to kind of praise the extremes. So right now I own the brand new Canon R6 Mark II amazing autofocus system with the RF lenses and they're super sharp amazingly shallow depth of field and can instantly hit an eye. I also own manual focus lenses from years and years and years ago and they're great too. But this kind of like this, this huge kind of diverse group of lenses in the middle that people don't look at. Actually right now, one of my favorite lenses is the 50 millimeter 1 .8 from Canon because it's incredibly cheap. People don't look at it and it renders exactly the same as those vintage lenses, but happens to have auto focus and there's this kind of, sometimes I think we kind of fall into the trap that we glorify the process over the end result. Sometimes that's massively valuable because if you're the kind of person that needs that to feel engaged with your subject, that's something you should prioritize. If you are the kind of person that by nature wants to rush ahead and you're trying to curb that to add more consideration to your work, manual focus might be the way to go. But you may be in a situation where really what you would actually want is to be able to make a photograph where you couldn't have done that before. And I think in those situations, those very modern lenses make sense because you can decide how fancy you want them to be and you can buy budget lenses that perform incredibly well and still get the performance. So if you are say in an industrial setting, but still want to have an artistic image, you have the option there. Whereas if I'm sitting with a Helios 44 -2 from like the kind of early 1950s, made in Russia, Tom's now showing me the Helios 44-2 on his camera. So that was a good guess, I guess. But it's going to make taking images in edge cases more difficult. So when I recommend equipment, I try not to do it in a vacuum. I try and think about the person and think, what is your current strength? What are your challenges? How can this equipment enhance your experience with photography?
And frankly, then we test it because sometimes I'm wrong. I might think something's perfect for you, use it in practice and it just does not work, which is the entire point of having like an ongoing consulting relationship because it means you can make sure that you choose the right thing and you get the results that actually work for your practice.
Tom Trevatt (21:33)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Yeah, it's amazing. I've never heard of a photography consultant. It's kind of what your life is. Tom, what does your day to day look like? Like if you've kind of painted the broad picture of what you're trying to do with people, but like, what does that mean on a day to day basis?
Tom Wright (21:51)
Hahaha.
Well, let's use the last week as an idea. So I was in the States working with somebody at one to one. We'd gone through all the ideation and we did some testing phase stuff. We made work together and then came home and then the rest of the process is happening over zoom. We're now building out a product, helping into write copy for his website. Um, I also still work as a commercial photographer, although I found more and more recently the companies that I work with are hiring me in for this consulting as well. So.
If I'm working in the industrial sector and this company is just trying to decide how do we start making use of social media, all of a sudden the visual identity matters, presentation skills matter. And there's a training element that goes into bringing people in -house to do that. So on an average day, I am one and meeting with a coach first thing in the morning, because again, neurodiverse could definitely do with the direction setting. So that that happens like very first thing. Then usually I'm on calls basically all day, either on zoom.
Tom Trevatt (22:58)
It can be.
Mm -hmm.
Tom Wright (23:05)
or trying to talk to new people that are interested in new stuff. I'll record a podcast, which I've recently scaled back and tried to be more intentional about because as we were talking about off air before we started recording, these things are amazing in terms of the conversation that happens. But sometimes the technical element of this kind of remote recording process is a pain in the neck. Um, and it's just me. So what I've tried to do is slow the release schedule.
Tom Trevatt (23:26)
Yeah.
Tom Wright (23:33)
have them be more in -person interviews, like one -to -one, and be a bit more considered about who I'm speaking to as well to try and give people a bit of a broader view of the industry.
Tom Trevatt (23:46)
So for people who don't know who you are, I came across you because James Melia was shouting good words about you. You are in his phone as tech support Tom, as far as I'm aware. But you used to run a podcast called Photographers Coffee Morning, which was born out of your conversations that you had on Clubhouse during the pandemic. The short lived social media platform Clubhouse.
Tom Wright (23:55)
Ha ha.
Yep.
Yes, that's right.
Impactful though.
Tom Trevatt (24:15)
Impactful. I, I never, I tried it once and I was like, huh? I never enjoyed it or never found it. I never found my home as it were, I think. Um, but I, you know, I know, I knew you through running this podcast and I watched a lot of your videos and all sorts of things, but the podcast has shifted. Like you said, you're now doing it in person. You've shifted the name. Remind me the new name.
Tom Wright (24:20)
Hahaha.
Mm.
It's About Creative Experience. And frankly, that was because I felt like the photographer's coffee morning was trivial and regular because that's what Clubhouse needed. It was basically a way of you having ephemeral conversations with like -minded people that went away. So you could talk about whatever you wanted and feel free. And basically everyone was locked inside so we had no other choice. Whereas...
getting out of lockdown, trying to arrange guests to come on, because they were initially round table discussions of like eight people plus on the podcast and on Clubhouse 150 plus. So these were big, big conversations. And I really missed that and I still miss that, but I'm not sure that the podcasting format lends itself to that. So I kind of re kind of rebranded it a little bit, changed the name because I feel that really
I want more people to understand what other people's creative experiences have been and try and hopefully help them feel less alone.
Tom Trevatt (25:38)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It is alone. It is a very lonely pursuit running a running a little business by yourself. Being a photographer, just you and your camera. But with the with the photography that you still do, obviously on, you know, on your Instagram, you've got some beautiful photographs, a lot of them are portraiture. A lot of them still seem pushing towards brand photography. But presumably, you can't show a lot of your work that you work with, or certainly don't.
Tom Wright (26:09)
Yeah. Um, and whether there have been times when I've been under NDA, like when I've worked with aerospace companies in the past, but there's also in many cases, kind of an unwritten rule that you're not really going to share this stuff if they're going to be sharing it as well. And I could definitely go ahead and share more of my commercial work, but one, I'm not sure how much of how exciting it actually is because I genuinely think that there's room in every industry to be a practitioner working for people that do not have glamorous businesses.
Um, like industrial photography, especially literally I once spent eight hours in a spray booth watching paint dry and video and paint dry. Um, because that's what the client needed and they were a regular client. Really the payment terms were right and the budget was right. So I did the work. Is anybody going to want to watch that on Instagram? I really hope not. So, you know, I mean, that's true. I probably miss in that niche TikTok audience of people that literally just like watching paint dry in the
Tom Trevatt (26:59)
You'd be surprised.
You could go through the whole process in seven seconds and just loop it with a trending audio. Probably go viral.
Tom Wright (27:07)
Yeah. Yeah. And the portrait side of the work, like I really love that. And since I started doing the education work, my business has shifted more to working for photographers as well. Like while I was in the States doing this work on an educational basis, we shot probably about 60 odd reels for a kind of a couple of wedding photographers that were there at the time and needed social content.
And very often, if I'm meeting with somebody to do these educational processes, we make, we made photographs anyway, and more and more I'm seeing them use those assets and get an awful lot out of it. So that's definitely been an unexpected change. Like I've produced a number of video projects, a number of photography projects for other photographers. Cause I think people are starting to realize gradually that they need marketing assets, just like all those people that they work for.
Tom Trevatt (28:03)
You mentioned there that you have a coach, your morning mentorship session. Tell me more about that. I've watched or possibly listened to a podcast where you interviewed your coach, but tell me more about that.
Tom Wright (28:06)
I do.
Hahaha.
Eheh.
So my coach is Jo McCarthy and basically we worked together infrequently because I was trying to transition into doing more freelance work… At the time, this is when I first kind of moved from working in corporate commercial photography for a company in -house to trying to be freelance, I thought, you know what, it makes sense for me to use somebody that's working with these independent artists, these small business owners, rather than a photography coach, because actually they're going to understand my audience better. And it turns out that's probably one of the best investments I ever made. Personally, I know that without somebody else to bounce these ideas off that is visually minded but not a photographer, I don't think I could get anything done. Because my tendency is to focus on technical stuff, because it's where my interest is, it's where my skill is, and having somebody that doesn't understand that means that if I'm getting too deep into the weeds on something, she will bring me back on topic.
So every morning we spend time either going through my schedule to work out what I need to prioritize, set calendar out, blocking out bookings. So I know that I'm giving people enough time to kind of complete work or we're working together on direction setting. And I'm trying to explain to a layman, somebody that isn't a photographer and is intentionally trying not to become one, why I'm doing something and what the benefit will be for the business. So like you said,
I'd never heard of a consultant photographer either, but it occurred to me that if it exists in the creative and artist community, why doesn't it exist in the photography community? If it exists in the product development community for any other business, why don't we have that for photographers? And if it wasn't for Joe, I'm pretty sure I would have had this idea and then just moved on and completely ignored it. Not her alone. There's been a lot of encouragement from other people in the industry. Like I said, James Mealy has been a constant advocate. We've known each other for a long time. And again, he was somebody else I consulted with when I was transitioning from full -time employed as a photographer to freelance. And without him and Joe, I don't think I'd actually be where I am today.
Tom Trevatt (32:31)
an amazing endorsement of both Jo and James. So hopefully lots of people will now look up Jo. What's her last name again?
Tom Wright (32:38)
McCarthy. So if you want a link, I can get you one for the show notes.
Tom Trevatt (32:42)
Yeah, that sounds good. Tom, you're a family man. You've got a young son. How old is your son?
Tom Wright (32:49)
I am, yeah. I do. He's five now and an absolute handful, I'm not gonna lie.
Tom Trevatt (32:57)
I bet, I bet. But you've presumably now you've got, you've got time for the family. Maybe before it was a bit more stressed, but did you think your lifestyle now is a little bit more relaxed because of what you do? Or is it actually even more stressful or more time consuming?
Tom Wright (33:12)
I think it's differently stressful. I mean, I didn't mention it early, but the reason why I left the corporate photography job that I had was because of having Harry, my son. He was born and it made me realize just how little I wanted to be away. And probably not the best timing, like it happened just before the pandemic hit.
I think it was maybe like less, it was less than a year before the lockdowns kind of started. Like my sense of time is horrific. So if I've given numbers before that'll give you an actual frame of reference. But I remember my wife being at home with him and having to go into work and thinking, I don't want to do this anymore. And even though my work was getting used in really interesting places, the actual photography that I was doing wasn't that interesting. And the pay.
Tom Trevatt (34:07)
Mm -hmm.
Tom Wright (34:08)
you're in house if you don't know is usually lower than being freelance because there's less risk involved you get paid holiday and all the rest of it. I remembered doing one job freelance and it equaled like two or three months of my pay. I remember being sat in a room with James Melia with Harry as a baby and my wife with me because we're trying to make decisions as a family. He was sat on my knee.
I remember James telling me, why are you doing this? You've got all this work waiting for you, why are you still employed? And I didn't have an answer for him. So at that point I thought, well, okay, I should probably quit then. Gave my notice and then kind of didn't look back from there.
Tom Trevatt (34:55)
I'm a big advocate for quitting. That is for sure. I, uh, my one, I, I've never really had an employment. I've never been gainfully employed apart from a short period of time directly after my undergrad, my BA in Brighton, when I worked for a financial services company. And I, uh, after, after, uh, after three months of doing that, I, I quit. Uh, and it was the best thing that I did because it launched me or catapulted me into running a small gallery in Brighton which then kind of pushed me forward into doing my masters and so on and so forth so it was absolutely vital for my development it was really fantastic so definitely an advocate for quitting so everyone out there, quit your jobs.
Tom Wright (35:40)
And if you need more encouragement to quit, there is a book called The Dip by Seth Godin that you should all go read. Like, quit often, and then when you pick something that you really love, never quit.
Tom Trevatt (35:47)
That's cool.
Right. That's fantastic. Quite often. Brilliant. But I think the, what's really, really important here is in a sense that you're building this life, right? You know, you, you get to have that kind of, um, that life that's based around, uh, being, being a dad and living in the, in the world, part of the world that you want to live in. Remind me again, where you live.
Tom Wright (36:12)
I'm about an hour north of Manchester. I live in Burnley. It's one of the kind of saddest mining towns in the country. The only claim to fame we have is the football team and I think I'm the only person in the town that could not care less about football. So the reason to be here is because of what you said before, it's family. And frankly, I am a bit of an advocate for the north. Like I really love where I am.
I'm an hour from Manchester, which in my opinion is one of the best cities in the country. You can fight me if you like. I'm okay to have that fight.
Tom Trevatt (36:44)
London's the answer to the question, but okay.
Tom Wright (36:46)
I mean, that's fine. Both can exist happily. There's two and a half hours of train between us. We've got plenty of market to kind of attract. But in the area that I am, I've got three fairly big metro areas close by. I've got Leeds, I've got Manchester, and I've got Liverpool, all within an hour, an hour and a half of where I'm based. So especially when I was doing more industrial work, that's perfect because there's all these brands in the middle that are completely unglamorous, like glass companies or...
Tom Trevatt (36:53)
Exactly.
Tom Wright (37:16)
Like we said, aerospace is really big in this area.
Tom Trevatt (37:19)
Really is, yeah, I'm aware of that because my dad used to work for British Aerospace and he was staying in Bolton. Yeah.
Tom Wright (37:25)
Yeah. And Clitherow as well is huge. And there's this entire area between Bolton and Preston that's basically only BAE. Um, so yeah, there's, there's an awful lot here. And like you said, the lifestyle element is one thing. Like if I had my, if I had my way, I probably would live in California, but it's entirely because of the tacos and nothing to do with anything else.
Tom Trevatt (37:32)
Yeah.
The tacos are not the weather.
Tom Wright (37:48)
Nah, I mean the weather's fine, like whatever, but tacos, they're forever.
Tom Trevatt (37:53)
You know there's some good taco places in London.
Tom Wright (37:56)
That's true, I have been.
Tom Trevatt (37:58)
Been to London once…
Tom Wright (38:00)
No, I used to work there quite a lot. So when I was doing the Polaroid workshops, like most of them were out of Rough Trade on Brick Lane. So it's not like I've never been to London. I am aware of its existence. I've worked there quite a few times as well. And actually a good friend of mine, Harris Ahmed, he does a lot of interiors and real estate stuff. He's based in London. And frankly, when he tells me something's good for food, I trust him. So...
Tom Trevatt (38:05)
Okay, nice, nice. I missed.
Tom Wright (38:27)
So yeah, I can definitely believe you've got good tacos. It's just if I'm going to spend four hours traveling somewhere, I might just spend the eight and get on a plane.
Tom Trevatt (38:35)
That was brilliant. Both my parents are from the North and you can't tell that from my accent, but I'm also a big advocate for the North, although have never lived there. But it's beautiful. Visited a few times, but definitely, definitely good. Tom, is there anything you're working on at the moment that you really want to talk about, that you want to kind of discuss? That you really want to...
Tom Wright (38:57)
I mean, we've kind of talked about it. The visual identity stuff that I've been doing has been one of the most varied jobs I've ever done in my life. It feels so refreshing to be able to go in and see somebody else's creative practice and then look at it and see what they're trying to achieve. Honestly, this really isn't a plug, but there was somebody earlier messaged me who we'd worked together about a year ago and he's...
had more success in the last 12 months than he'd had in the previous few. And hearing that kind of stuff is like one of the best things I've ever experienced. And I'm sure you feel the same. So obviously you've been an educator for a long time, Tom. Like when you get people come back to you and show you the results of information that you shared or helping them to appreciate something or even just reinforcing something that they were already doing and felt self -conscious about. That's like gold. So if you're asking me if I have anything to plug,
I don't. I just wanted to share the latest happiness that I've had, which has been doing this long enough that I can start seeing people's results.
Tom Trevatt (40:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the vital things about education is not about trying to tell people how to do something, but helping them understand how they can do that thing. You know, how they can think critically about something, how they can think more, you know, open their mind in this direction or that direction. Now that might look like showing how you do something or how you think interestingly about something, but it's always in a way in service of encourage them, encouraging them to try and discover their own way of thinking or their own way of making or so forth, which I think is so vital for education.
Tom Wright (40:39)
I think you're right. And honestly, I kind of wanted to ask you the question because this, I hate it when people do this to me, it's my turn now. So you asked me what I'm doing right now that I'm kind of looking forward to is making me excited. And we talked at length about it, but what about you Tom? Like this is obviously, I'm guessing a relatively new endeavor for you. You hadn't started the podcast this time a year ago. So how are you finding these new challenges, this kind of more presenting role? How's that going for you?
Tom Trevatt (40:47)
I mean, like you, I've got a bit of a motor mouth, so I'm quite happy to talk. Um, I do enjoy it. I mean, do you know what? It's interesting. I was listening to you have a conversation with Amy, uh, from snap, um, on, on their podcast a couple of days ago. And, uh, you said that you find being the interviewer easier. Cause you don't have to think up the answers. Uh, whereas I'm like, no, I love being the interviewed person because then I can just tell the stories rather than being like.
Tom Wright (41:21)
Yeah.
Literally.
Tom Trevatt (41:37)
Oh, my brain's going to think of all the questions to ask. So it is a challenge in that respect and I love it, but it's really nice because one of the reasons I started doing this was because I want to learn quickly, as quickly as I possibly can, right? You know, we've spoken a little bit about my story, my story into photography. And, you know, I started this whole thing about three years ago, just under three years ago. And I've been trying to do it on fast mode, like trying to kind of, you know,
Tom Wright (41:52)
Yeah.
Tom Trevatt (42:07)
ratchet up those kinds of the learning and the gains and so forth and over the last three years. And so actually running a podcast is one of those ways. Cause actually I have to have those kinds of conversations, ask the sort of questions that I might want to know from somebody, learn a little bit about the way that they do their thing, you know, have those kinds of learning experiences myself. And it's been, you know, I think we're on episode eight or nine. This, I think, I think you're number nine.
Tom Wright (42:13)
Mm -hmm.
That's fast. That's so fast.
Tom Trevatt (42:35)
So, yeah, we've been working really, really hard on it. I mean, it doesn't work without Barry. So Barry is the producer. I've shouted him out a couple of times so far, but Barry, when you're listening to this, doing the edit, you're vital. Because as you know, editing a podcast or editing anything is a very, very time consuming experience.
Tom Wright (42:57)
Yeah. And I think for me as well, because I'm, because I do video projects as well, I almost feel like I have to do the post -production myself. Like there's definitely a lack of delegation. I kind of want to ask you this though, because you said that, oh, I find it really difficult being the interviewer and asking the questions. Like obviously the values there, which is great, is making that learning cycle go faster and do more loops, which is awesome. But why aren't you telling stories?
Tom Trevatt (43:18)
Yeah.
I'm telling stories a little bit now and again. Of course. Yeah. More stories. Okay, I'll tell some more stories.
Tom Wright (43:27)
More please.
No, I mean it. Because the thing is that I'm thinking about you as a person and like the way that your insight would feed into this industry and thinking, well, how many other people can tell you the art history behind a certain approach to lighting and photography? A lot of people can pretend, but you actually have a qualification in it. You know what you're doing and you've taken people doing the same discipline as these original masters through the process of navigating that. So when I look at
Tom Trevatt (43:46)
Cool. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Tom Wright (44:00)
this podcast, obviously it's, I'm guessing it's loosely for Headshots Matter, which is massively important for that side of things. But maybe I'm speaking on behalf of the audience, but I'd love to hear more about the kind of fine art background and how it applies.
Tom Trevatt (44:10)
Yeah, well, it's so it is very loosely headshots matter associated. And obviously this first season, we're doing this in seasons, we've decided halfway through this first season that we're actually going to be doing it in seasons, because we need a break. Yeah. So the first season is mostly it works all photographers you qualify as a photographer, but also a photographer, educator and somebody in the in the world.
Tom Wright (44:34)
Oh, thank you.
Tom Trevatt (44:38)
But then next, next season, I think is going to be more focused on either we're going to work with academics and activists, people in the kind of sort of, it's called photography adjacent. So adjacent to photography, that kind of world. But then also I want to do a season, which is going to be focused more on like, let's say people in the acting industry, the filmmaking industry, those kinds of people. Cause what I want to do is have those kinds of conversations from a, from this perspective of asking.
Tom Wright (45:02)
Yes.
Tom Trevatt (45:07)
for a photographer. Like, I want it to be valuable both for photographers. Okay, so how does a casting director look at a casting photograph, a headshot or whatever? How does a filmmaker think about lens choice or lighting or something like that? How does an actor think about getting their headshots and so on? But also then very valuable for then people who are my clients as well.
Tom Wright (45:26)
Hmm.
And that's huge because this is something that is frustrating across every avenue of photography. The people doing the educating have got one specific set of skills, but really what you're trying to understand is appeal and like what are people on the other side of this doing? And strangely in headshots more than anything else, you've got this entire industry that you're helping people get into. So you're essentially trying to sell people access initially and then continued access to acting jobs, to...
corporate events and fair enough, like the act of taking a headshot is the same, whether it's a business person or it's somebody that wants to act. But those two things are completely different markets. And if you don't look at them separately, you're going to have a headache. And choosing cinematographers as people on the other side of it would scratch everybody's creative itch. But then having a casting director is going to get rid of the frustration. Like, why don't they pick the images that I love? What they're going to tell you.
Tom Trevatt (46:12)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. They will. They'll tell us. I mean, this is you hit on something there, which is the languages that these two different types of clients speak. And so the answer to the question, what am I working on at the moment is actually developing a brand strategy for a new part of my business, which is a headshots and branding photography for business people, business owners and so forth. And the aim is to work with people who want to make the world a better place. I love working with actors and I love that my Tom Trevatt brand is really focused on actors and I'm working with people who work in that kind of creative space. But I can't speak to actors and somebody who runs a pottery business at the same time. It's really difficult to have those kind of two conversations happening in the same place. So there is a new brand in the works that I will talk about at some point in more detail.
Tom Wright (47:27)
And even the language you use is one thing, but there's also an affordability difference as well, because somebody that's in pottery, they're not typically doing that because there's a ton of money in it or that they expect an awful lot. Like I'm doing a personal project at the moment revolving around people that are in not solo businesses, but small businesses in Manchester. Call the makers of Manchester. I've not published anything from it yet. So, and maybe never will because it's for me and that's fine.
But basically I'm working with people that don't typically interact with marketing because that Potter might have an exclusive distribution deal with somebody like, I don't know, like Gordon Ramsey for his restaurant, or they might have it for some independent coffee shop around the corner. And it can be enough for that person to live. And these are lifestyle businesses in the non -pejorative sense in that this person is putting their life into this business and does not care if they make a million pains or just enough to keep the lights on because the point is it means they can keep doing it. So if you go in and your offer is aligned at a level where you're expecting to make huge amounts of money on every interaction, that doesn't work either. And it's strange you're saying about the pivot, because this is literally the stuff that makes me excited because I'm looking at you have this skill set and you're putting it here. Where else? Like where could you be happier? Or if you're already happy, like how do we make sure you can continue to do it?
Tom Trevatt (48:27)
Absolutely, yeah.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Tom Wright (48:53)
Those kinds of questions, it's like fuel.
Tom Trevatt (48:55)
Absolutely. I was kind of influenced by you a little bit on the old pottery thing, because I saw a shoot you did maybe about eight months ago, and I was like, Oh, that looks like a really nice shoot. That looks like a fun conversation. And actually, like, I like, you know, I like well crafted things.
Tom Wright (49:05)
Yeah, it's fun.
Great.
Tom Trevatt (49:14)
You know, I love, I love beautiful furniture. I grew up in an environment where both my parents were really, really engaged in. So my dad, you know, I told you, my dad worked in, um, in boss in Bolton, uh, did work in Bolton, uh, for British Aerospace. So he was working for a furniture company and he used to work for Herman Miller. Um, there happens to be an Eames chair here that he got from Herman Miller about 30, 40 years ago.
Tom Wright (49:26)
see that's going to be worth a few pennies.
Tom Trevatt (49:40)
Yeah, you know, hold on to it though. And my mum, you know, came through a sort of design school and worked for bookbinders and was very into art, you know, is still very, very into, into art and so on and so forth. And so, you know, my design, you wouldn't look, you wouldn't know it looking at my flat because it's a, it's a mess at the moment, apart from this little window that we can see. But I do care a lot about a lot about design. So, you know, I
Tom Wright (50:01)
Hahaha.
Tom Trevatt (50:08)
I want to work with people who also have those kinds of sets of concerns and commitments in a way, because I love the idea of being like, right, okay, how can I help somebody who's making something with their hands? How can I have that kind of, you know, build their brand or help them build their brand and have those kinds of conversations? And it's really exciting. You know, I've got, I've got a shoot next week with somebody who runs a pottery school.
And it's really lovely because it's like, okay, we'll come and I'll come and do this little shoot with you to test out the light, test out how we can, you know, sort of put together these photographs. Um, and then of course, all of their, all of the people who do the pottery in the pottery school, they might either want photographs of themselves and their pots because, Hey, I've achieved something. You know, I spent six months working this pottery school and there's some lovely photographs to not just the pots and the cups and so forth.
but there's also people who are doing it because they might want to start selling it. So in a way it's like if you work with those kinds of groups of people, you can make it very affordable for each individual person to have like a little shoot with you, which is great.
Tom Wright (51:22)
And it kind of fosters this almost cooperative style. Like we're seeing this a lot more in the States. And I mentioned California earlier, while I was out there, one of the big things that hit me is how much farm to fork has become a thing. So people working directly with farms to produce food that they then sell in a restaurant. And I feel like these kind of creative ecosystems that can get built, they're more and more important because maybe you can't justify spending.
Tom Trevatt (51:36)
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tom Wright (51:50)
on my day rate or your day rate for a set of photographs for the school. But by the time you take into account all the people that are involved, there's definitely potentially enough there to support you and sustain you. And then you've got to think about the product. Are you essentially building a visual identity for this pottery school? And if you are, that makes you like a scarce resource. They're not going to be quick to throw you away because they're visually educated people. They're making something aesthetic.
They're doing it for the love of it and they know what it's like to be an artist and how important it is to have a consistent income base. I just, I just love the mindset behind this stuff.
Tom Trevatt (52:25)
Absolutely.
Mm -hmm.
And I also love, I love going into art studios because it's my history, it's my background, you know, just being in an art studio or being in something that feels a little bit like an art studio. It's really exciting for me. I've done a couple of shoots for artists now and it's like, yeah, this is really lovely. This is really, really nice. I never made art apart from maybe a few, like put a tennis ball on a piece of glass or something like that back in the day. But I was a curator for a very long time and ran galleries and all sorts of things. So, you know, it's always been about that kind of, sort of interaction between the idea of showcasing something, you know, showcasing an artist's work, but also how do you kind of have some kind of, um, stake in that process? So it's not just for me, it was never just like show something disappear. It was about that kind of interaction between your artistic vision, your kind of intellectual engagement with those ideas, um, or creative engagement, visual engagement and their.
work, which actually lends itself really, really well to, I think, you know, sort of, let's say branding photography within this kind of context. One of the things I've noticed a lot about brand personal branding photographers, I don't know if you've noticed this Googling, but personal branding photographers seem to take what I call the thigh up, which is a photograph of somebody looking kind of smart, smiling, bright saturated colors, probably outside often in front of the Barbican in London.
Tom Wright (53:37)
Agreed.
Tom Trevatt (53:57)
from the thigh up. It's just like, oh, that's a standard thigh up.
Tom Wright (54:03)
I mean, I think that it's like anything else. Like it depends on the level you're looking at. Cause when you look at stuff at the very high end, like you don't see that the same way. Like if you look at modern house, for example, or like that kind of thing, there is brand photography in there and it feels like it came out of a magazine and you see agencies like a suitcase agency. They actually did print a magazine called suitcase for years.
And it was almost like, prove positive. Like here is what it's like to work with us. So there are definitely branding agencies, brand photographers that do more than that. But I think people don't know what else is available until you show it to them. And if that's what's been performing really well, or if that's what Instagram pushes, our perception can be, that's all there is. And even if it's Google, maybe Google thinks that's what personal brand photography should be. And as a result, that social platform of
Tom Trevatt (54:33)
Hmm.
Mm.
Yeah.
Tom Wright (54:58)
Google search and search engine optimization is pushing one thing. But I think one of the things that I've really loved about this process is that even when you see somebody that's working that way, sometimes that isn't the stuff that lights them up. But there's this industry perception that says this is what you should be producing. That means that that's all they show. That client might never even use that image, but there might be another one in the set that felt more authentic that they lean on.
Tom Trevatt (55:14)
Mm -hmm.
Tom Wright (55:27)
but because it doesn't do well on Instagram, they don't even bother posting it.
Tom Trevatt (55:27)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. I think this, this, this leads me onto what is probably going to be the final question, but it might be quite a big one. Uh, and we started talking about this a little bit today, but we've also spoken about it before and that's the concept of gatekeeping. And I know you're a, you, you strongly dislike gate, gatekeeping.
Tom Wright (55:47)
Yes, I do.
Tom Trevatt (55:50)
Um, not just in the photography industry, presumably, but, um, you know, this is kind of part of the reason why, you know, it's really important to offer so much for free and to engage with people and to do something like this, because precisely it's the, it's that kind of opening the gates.
Tom Wright (56:06)
Yeah. And I think the, the only time that I let's say another way, the only reason I ever actually charged for this is because I have to, if I'm doing educational work, I'm not doing commercial work. That it's that simple. And if I'm focusing on this, I need, I need to be compensated for it, which is fine. But a huge part of my work week, especially when the podcast is being produced is spent producing content. I see no return for.
Tom Trevatt (56:14)
Mm, of course.
Tom Wright (56:32)
The first consultation that I do for every single person is completely free. And very often I give you enough information that if you want to do the legwork yourself, you don't have to hire me ever again. There's no requirement to do that. If we talk about the direction you want to go in, and I tell you directly what I think would work, and you go do it, awesome. That's amazing. Why would you not want it? Why would I be unhappy about it? That's amazing. And I think that...
Tom Trevatt (56:44)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Wright (57:00)
It's something that kind of leaves me a little bit cold because it's actually caught me out in too many situations. And I don't think it's healthy for the industry. Like one of the episodes of my podcast that did the worst annoyingly was with Emma Alexander from Wisen and she is a wonderful producer. And we had a really interesting conversation about how producers can advocate for photographers on things like licensing. Because for those that don't know commercial photography will operate on a
day rate or a creative fee, which will have a negotiated usage included. And there are a number of agencies in the UK that have two contracts. One is for people that know about licensing and the other is for those that don't. And if you don't know about it, it doesn't matter. They're not going to talk to you about it. They're not going to inform you because that could potentially cost their client thousands and thousands of pounds every year for the lifetime of them using that image.
Tom Trevatt (57:43)
Mmm, wow.
Tom Wright (57:56)
So the branding agency has an incentive not to tell you. And as photographers, if we don't talk about it, eventually clients will not expect to pay it.
Tom Trevatt (58:05)
Yeah.
They are not expecting to pay it at the moment, that's for sure. Yeah. Whenever I have a conversation with someone about licensing. So obviously most of my clients are headshot photographers. So I don't, sorry, are headshot clients. So I don't have to worry too much about licensing. I don't, don't worry at all about it, but there are sometimes people email me and get in contact with me and want to talk about doing a commercial photography shoot for their perfume brand, whatever it is.
Tom Wright (58:11)
Exactly.
Tom Trevatt (58:36)
And so then I sit down with them and say, okay, here's my day rate. Let's have a conversation about licensing, about usage. They're completely blown away. They don't understand it. And it suddenly becomes incredibly expensive. And they go, what do you mean? I just thought you took some photographs. And I was like, well, look, this is there to protect you as much as it is to protect me. What happens in two years time if I say, actually, I don't want to be using those photographs ever again.
and you've built a whole campaign on those photographs, well, I've got the right to, because we haven't signed a license agreement. So, yeah.
Tom Wright (59:08)
literally. And the other side of it is for those that don't know, just giving them a basic background, the AOP, the Association of Photographers, which is the standardized body in the UK, they recommend that if you do not outline usage, it is assumed that they will either have two platforms for one year or one platform's usage for two years. So there are kind of certain industry assumptions that take place. And that can be helpful in a way, because it means if you don't broach it, you can just say, Oh, look, if nobody else has mentioned it, and then refer to this like industry standard independent body, there's nothing to do with your business and say, look, this is what they say. And if they ask you for transparency and how you come up with your rates, they even provide like a guide calculates say, well, if you charge this much for a photograph, how much more should it be if they're using that to print t -shirts with it on, or how much should it be if they put it on a billboard and they put it on their website. So we're not.
Tom Trevatt (59:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tom Wright (1:00:06)
So, clicking these numbers out of thin air, this isn't profiteering. It's just trying to make sure that these businesses are paying appropriately for the services that they would have had to access previously. And the biggest thing for me, if they do not want to relicense a photograph, it means they have to hire another photographer.
Tom Trevatt (1:00:09)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's vital. But we, the problem is, is that there will always be somebody who doesn't know about licensing and will be exploited. And for me, what's really important in my business and in my life is not to exploit other people and not to exploit myself. And I think it's right. I've refused gigs based on the fact that
Tom Wright (1:00:45)
Mm -hmm.
Tom Trevatt (1:00:49)
even though it might look like on the face of it, it's a decent, a decent sum of money. It's actually exploitative precisely because of who it's for and the usage of that, of those images. When we get off air, I'll tell you a very, very special story about it. And I think, I think it's really important that in fact, actually, you know, if we talk, if we talk about this, like if we talk about the idea, for me, it's really, really important that we, that we run businesses that don't exploit people or the
Tom Wright (1:01:03)
I'm ready.
Tom Trevatt (1:01:17)
And if we're going to do that, then we need to be really clear about what it means to work with us where I'm not being exploited as well, because I am an employee of my business in much the same way as were I to hire an associate photographer or a retoucher or an editor. Those people, I would want to pay them a fair wage because I think it's really important that we do so. And that, that wage does change depending on who the clients are and the usage of those images. Of course, it might be that I go to tomorrow and work with a
Tom Wright (1:01:37)
Mm -hmm.
Tom Trevatt (1:01:45)
a small pottery school and they don't have those big budgets to spend. But if someone who's the sort of marketing exec for a massive business contacts me and expects to pay pottery school prices, it's not going to happen.
Tom Wright (1:02:00)
And actually this is an interesting point because that same work is useful to more than one group of people. There's a guy, Andrew Painter, who used to do some work for Hayi Denim. He's an incredible photographer, not on Instagram right now. So go to his website, it's andrewpainter .com, P -A -Y -N -T -E -R, I think. And he did a project for Levi. And the only thing that was a giveaway that it was Levi is because the people in the photographs are wearing jeans.
Everything else was artists doing long -term projects in their studios shot on film.
Tom Trevatt (1:02:36)
Lovely.
Tom Wright (1:02:37)
But if you'd thought about it on the face of it, can that artist afford those photographs? No. Are those photographs valuable to somebody else? Clearly. So when you look at these personal projects that we're doing, and we look at it at the limited scope of the client being the person that you produce the images for, another reason why licensing is important is if somebody decides, oh, that's my product in that. Oh, that's really cool. They're using such and such in this photograph.
Can I license it? Yes. And they've not paid for a shoot. They've not paid for anything else. All they're paying for is the usage because you have gone and produced it. But if you do not know how licensing works, how do you even start? How many times have we seen in photography groups on Facebook or online, anywhere else, even just had messages from people. Somebody said, can they use this? How much do I charge? And if the conversation's happening at that point,
Tom Trevatt (1:03:15)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Tom Wright (1:03:36)
It's going to be a difficult conversation because you won't understand the value of the photograph. And so the thing you were saying about knowing your audience and not being exploitative exactly right. Are you going to charge an amount of money for those photographs to a potter that's going to basically bankrupt them? No, no, you're not. But will you charge Levi potentially the same amount of money you were thinking and not lose any sleep over it? Almost certainly.
Tom Trevatt (1:03:40)
Absolutely.
Yeah, of course. Tom, it's been absolutely fantastic to have you on the podcast. Um, where can people find you online?
Tom Wright (1:04:09)
I'm at BytomW on all the socials. I'm only really active on YouTube and Instagram. And to be honest, even then, it's definitely not my primary focus. If you want to find out about what I'm offering, my website is www .bytomw .com. It's currently under construction. So if you want to know any more, or if you want like sneak peek behind the curtain of what's being built, just drop me a DM on Instagram basically always available.
Tom Trevatt (1:04:39)
Amazing. Tom, thank you so much for joining us.
Tom Wright (1:04:42)
Thanks very much, Tom. All the best.